Basketball: Men's top 10 tracker; Carleton upset by, wait for it, York

Those six coaches who kept UBC in the top spot were on to something.

The T-Birds, who had a 49-point win over UVic on Saturday and are in line to host the Canada West Final Four, should shoot back to No. 1. York, no need to double-check on this, pulled the upset of the season by beating Carleton 80-74 on Friday in Toronto.

For those scoring at home, York had a 52-point swing from the teams' first meeting back in January. It just is. York's won on Carleton's floor in the past, but the Ravens typically fare reasonably well there.

Ranked teams flirting with disaster seemed to be a theme on Friday, since UBC, Lakehead, Ottawa and Simon Fraser each got a push on the road. Ultimately, that's what you want to see as a fan, right? No givens.
  1. Carleton (17-2 OUA-E, 2nd in RPI through Saturday) — Beat Laurentian (83-71) on Saturday and lost to York (80-74) on Friday.

    Tyson Hinz (21 points, 10 rebounds), Kevin McCleery (16) and Cole Hobin (13, 11 boards) were Carleton's main cogs vs. the Voyageurs. Laurentian, under coach Shawn Swords, stayed with two high-ranked teams this weekend, so full marks to them.

    Some will wonder about Carleton's results over its past three games, dating back to only beating Ryerson by single digits on Jan. 30. They have played five games in 11 days, a very physical up-and-down game vs. Ottawa, so they've emptied some of their tank. The Feb. 20 reg-season finale vs. Ottawa (just a single game that week) should be a better litmus test.

    What happened vs. York? The Ravens didn't get any rebounds (minus-6, 34-28), with Dejan Kravic (22 points, 17 rebounds and five blocked shots) doing a lot of damage, along with Stefan Haynes.

    Ostap Choliy (18 points, seven boards) and David Tyndale (11 points, six assists) were also clutch. York (4-13) is two games out of the last playoff spot, but talk about a season-salvager.

    Carleton coach Dave Smart essentially used just his core six players. Hobin (20) and McCleery (19) put up numbers, but the rest of the Ravens were cold (they were an uncharacteristic 57% from the foul line).

  2. UBC Thunderbirds (16-1 CW Pacific, 1st RPI) — Swept UVic (90-41 Sat., 78-72 Fri.), as they secured home-court advantage for the Canada West Final Four. It was 30-2 after the first quarter in the Saturday game, so that allays some concerns about the T-Birds' tendency for slow starts.

    Josh Whyte (28 points in 23 minutes, 9-of-14 shooting) lit it up while playing some of the game as the off-guard (according to CITR 101.9).

    Friday, UBC took time to get into a flow, with Whyte going scoreless in the first half before finishing with 13 points. Kyle Watson also had 13.

    Fun fact: On Friday, Brent Malish (12 points) and Kamar Burke (11) each missed dunks that might have otherwise brought the house down.

  3. St. Francis Xavier (14-0 AUS, 7th RPI) — Finished a season-series sweep of Dalhousie, 84-64 on Sunday with Christian Upshaw scoring 17 and dropping eight assists, while Chad Warren hooped 15 despite playing less than half the game.

  4. Cape Breton (14-1 AUS, 10th RPI) — Swept UNB (94-7 Sat., 84-65 Fri.). How did Lasario Burrows score 15 points in just eight minutes in the Saturday game? That is the strangest stat line of the week.

    Almost everyone in the rotation got at least 8-10 minutes for CBU. Jimmy Dorsey hooped a game-high 18 on Friday.

  5. Calgary (15-4 CW Prairie, 5th RPI) — Swept Brandon (96-88 Sat., 103-70 Fri.). Robbie Sihota had 31 points in the second half, as the Dinos got their first road sweep ever of the Bobcats.

    Ross Bekkering had 29 in the Friday tilt.

  6. Ottawa (16-3 OUA-E, 8th RPI) — Beat York (85-71) and Laurentian (83-78) with Josh Gibson-Bascombe (32 points Saturday and 30 Friday) and Warren Ward (22 and 23) leading the way.

    Friday vs. Laurentian was just a fun game to watch, that was in doubt until the Voyageurs' Manny Pasquale lost his dribble out of bounds in the final seconds when he was trying to get a look at a tying three-pointer. Donnie Gibson (13 points) twice hit threes from the left wing in the second half which put Ottawa back on top immediately after Laurentian had drawn even. Ward also put Ottawa ahead for good with a triple with just less than 3 minutes to go.

    As a general comment, it's good to see Carleton and Ottawa getting a push from the sixth- and seventh-place teams in the division.

  7. Simon Fraser (14-3 CW Pacific, 3rd RPI) — It didn't come easily but they swept at Thompson Rivers (91-74 Sat., 79-73 Fri). The Clan scored 57 in the second half of the Saturday game to climb out of 10-point halftime hole. Sean Burke and Matt Kuzminski (21 points each) did most of the scoring, but Kevin Shaw (10) hit each of threes at good times. The first put SFU ahead late in the third quarter. The other, with 5:22 left, stretched the lead to 10.

    Burke was man of the match Friday, hitting a go-ahead three-pointer with 1:21 left.

  8. Lakehead (14-4 OUA-W, 9th RPI) — Keep finding ways to win, having swept Waterloo by a combined nine points (65-61 Sat., 63-58 Fri.).

    It was probably part tough D, part some general ugliness in the second game, where the Thunderwolves and Warriors combined to shoot an effective 37.5 per cent. Andrew Hackner (19 points on 7-of-13) had a hot enough hand for Lakehead.

    Jamie Searle (25 points, nine rebounds, 5-of-8 on threes) was the catalyst in the Friday game.

  9. Windsor (13-5 OUA-W, 4th RPI) — Edged Laurier 63-61 on Saturday in a defensive struggle, coming from 10 points down in the final 10 minutes. Nigel Johnson-Tyghter (13 points in 18 minutes) was one X-factor.

    Beat Guelph 89-68 on Wednesday, shooting an effective 71.4% (30-of-56, 10 triples) with four players scoring 15-16 points.

    Windsor's remaining sked consists of Waterloo, Laurier, Guelph and a trip to McMaster. Lakehead has a tricky final two series, at Brock and home to Western, two teams who are hard to draw into a defensive struggle.

  10. Dalhousie (10-6 AUS, 20th RPI) — Lost by 20 to No. 3 St. FX on Sunday, despite 29 points from Simon Farine, who's carrying them; he scored 32 in an 87-71 win over Acadia on Wednesday.

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  1. Cantankerous2/02/2010 10:20 pm've got UBC #1 and Carleton #2!
    Switch it before anyone notices it!

    BTW, X will show the voters for the fourth time already that Dal is not a Top 10 team,
    with another double digit spanking

  2. Thanks, Can ... would have switched it sooner but was on phone doing an interview!

  3. This poll is almost politically correct . 2 Pac , 1 PR , 4ONT(2w,2E) , 3Aus, 0Q , When DAl gets beat this week-end the voters may be able to get a Q team in and the poll will be perfect .(JOKE) Their must be a lot of Dal alumni who vote in this poll ,because I can't think of any other reason why they're their .

  4. @11:10: Sure that's just a coincidence, although if Mac gets ranked then everyone carps about having 5 OUA teams in the Top 10.

  5. You wouldn't happen to know which 6 coaches voted for UBC?
    My bet is they're all from CW and mostly CW Pac.
    What I REALLY want to know is who voted to keep Dal in the top 10
    besides John Campbell and his dad.

  6. Excellent post and writing style. Bookmarked.

  7. Carleton's reign as the new #1 was short and not too sweet.
    In what has to rank as one of the biggest upsets since Sweden-Belarus, the lowly
    York Lions stun the Ravens 80-74, handing Carleton a completely unexpected 2nd loss this season.
    The Ravens were outrebounded and undoubtedly outworked by York,
    who were crushed by 46 points when they last played Carleton in Ottawa a month ago.
    Since the Ravens have become a perennial powerhouse a decade ago,
    they had never lost at the Tait McKenzie, even when York had powerful teams.
    This loss to the Lions is completely confounding.
    This is certainly the poorest York team in years, certainly since Dave Smart started coaching at Carleton.
    The fact that Carleton lost to this York team, of all teams, defies belief.

  8. Carleton just got completely outplayed tonight at the Tait McKenzie Center. Yorks bigs inside (Stefan Haynes & Dejan Kravic) created a huge matchup problem for Carleton and did a tremendous defensive job on Kevin Mcleery. York seemingly controlled the entire game, never trailing and also remained calm under pressure, something which this young York team hasnt done well all year. Kudos to York on a job well done.

  9. Cantankerous2/06/2010 1:16 am

    Dejan Kravic grabs 17 boards while Kevin McCleery has but one?...what is wrong with this picture?
    While York is to be commended for their effort, Carleton by the same token,
    must be taken to task for their effort, or more precisely, lack thereof.
    Apart from Cole Hobin, it appears that too many Ravens were passenger pigeons Friday.
    Rebounding is all about hard work and commitment and Carleton showed little of that.
    Needless to say, there will be hell to pay at practice this week.

  10. Is the passenger pigeon a cousin to the more productive, messenger pigeon?

    Who are these passenger pigeons that are only along for the ride anyway?

  11. Carleton was due for a loss. (not by York) They are not as physically strong as other years and have looked tired as of late. If you control McCleery and they have a below average 3 point game they can be beat . The surprise is that York was able to score 80 points against Carleton. They must have had a lot of second chances. A few losses in regular season can only help Carleton . They need to be pushed in order to improve their chances of repeating at the nationals.

  12. X is overdue to move up to #1

  13. X is "overdue" to be ranked #1?
    Well, for one thing, X has three losses, Carleton two, UBC one.
    Secondly, let's see how X handles the only real competition they have in the AUS, Cape Breton.

  14. Coaches, please don't move X to the 1 seed. Carleton's loss shouldn't drop them more than one spot unless they lose again tongight.

  15. X has no losses in regular season. UCB only one loss. Maybe they should both move up. I assume your perception of the AUS is based on preseason games?

  16. Almost everyone here is bashing the Q this year because of poor pre-season...welcome to the group, AUS. ;)

  17. Cantankerous2/06/2010 12:28 pm

    When half the league consists of Acadia, UNB, MUN and UPEI and they haven't played each other yet
    no wonder X and Cape Breton have one loss between them.
    Yes, Alex everyone bashes the poor old Q because they lost a lot of of out of
    out of conference games and looked bad doing it for the most part.
    But you'll still get a berth at nationals and whoever represents the QSSF has
    a chance to defend the province's honour.

  18. HaHa..I'm hearing you AlexT

  19. By getting seeded between 6th to 8th? Can't wait to see that...

    Anyway, my point is that pre-season shouldn't impact the TOP 10 this much, but maybe should be considered as a tie-breaker.

    Take out pre-season games, and a team like UQAM is 10-4, which isn't that bad...and better than Dalhousie.

    Anyway, back to the topic... I think that X has to beat Cape Breton to be a legit #1.

    How about UBC/X/Carleton as the TOP 3? All 3 pre-season X loses were "quality losses"...Carleton lost to YORK (and Lakehead...quality loss) in REGULAR SEASON action.

    In the NCAA, it would be enough to drop you big time in the rankings. I know this is CIS, but losing to one of the worst teams in the country has to hurt you in the rankings.

  20. Well, except for that Guelph bad.

  21. I think it could really go either way. Depends if peope value St FX's impending win over a "ranked" Dalhousie. By the time the last top 10 comes out, I guarentee some of X/UBC/Carleton will suffer losses and the picture at the top will be clear. The most interesting scenario I see is if UBC and X win out. X will be undefeated in regular season and would have beaten a very good CB twice (I think it's just two meetings...). If they are #2 at that point, you can't really jump them ahead of UBC (if they win out and are #1 after this weekend) but that would add some good fuel to this fire.

  22. @ Anonymous 11:47

    Calling them preseason games (and with "meaningless" assumed but unstated) is convenient when playing in a league with no depth outside the top 2. X will stay at #3 where they belong.

    Since basketball includes inter league games and since 90% of the inter-league games take place before the regular season they have to be factored into a national top 10. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a national top 10.

  23. The AUS has two of the top teams in the country in X and CB. They both are as athletic (probably more athletic) than other teams in the country. The dominate the AUS because of their athletism and depth. This is why X beat Ottawa (a pretty athletic team) in the Shovellor tournamnet.

    St. Mary's is a very solid team with one of the best backcourts in the country.

    People on the boards love to bash Dal, however there is a reason why CIS coaches not fans have voted them constantly in the top 10, they are pretty good. They are 8-2 in non conference games, with losses only to top 10 teams (Ottawa and Calgary). When they have some key players step up they will compete with anyone. I think tomorrow's game versus X will be close.

  24. cantankerous2/06/2010 3:39 pm

    Nobody's "bashing"'s just that they are not top 10 material and the proof is in the RPI.
    It's the coaches who are getting their knuckles rapped here for pointedly ignoring the facts.
    Maybe Dal is 8-2 in NC, but only two of those wins were against teams playing .500 or better ball.
    Dal has lost SEVEN times to teams ranked in the top 10 currently.
    X has beaten them three times and CB twice and none were close.
    I hope tomorrow's game will be close...about bloody time Dal played X close.
    The clincher is Dal is 0-6 against AUS teams that have winning records.

  25. Those preseason games lose meaning when the team goes on to undefeated league play ... Consistency of the top 2 teams in the AUS doesn't mean that the rest of the league is without depth.
    Hey maybe you'ld rather OUA and Canada West have their own nationals since you seem to have little respect for the rest. You seem to put no value on the win X had against Ottawa. I think you want it both ways.
    Being undefeated in your league play should have more weight than any other considerations. After that and only after that, should non conference games be considered.

  26. X and Cape Breton are clearly among the CIS elite, irrespective of what one might think of the rest of the AUS.
    SMU and Dalhousie are a couple of notches below them and Acadia a couple more notches below the top.
    The remaining three teams are cannon fodder, inside or outside the AUS.
    I saw UPEI play in person and they are really bad.
    If UNB and MUN are worse than them they must be beyond awful.

  27. If X beats CB twice they may deserve a top three ranking . If they split maybe they should both fall out of top 5. If X was in the OUA league they would not be undefeated . There is a way too much depth in the league. All 8 teams who make the play-offs have the ability to make nationals and top six teams could be ranked . The most important stat should be the wins you have against top 10 teams and teams that have been in the top ten . Dal??? is a top 10 team. X, CB good teams in a weak conference . If either team had to play CAR, OTT ,WIN, LH, MAC , TO on the same week-end they would not be undefeated at this point in time . X number 1 NOT A CHANCE

  28. @ Anonymous 4:51

    "Being undefeated in your league play should have more weight than any other considerations.

    The QSSF supporters would love your standards. Forget the fact that the conference is the weakest in the country by far...if a team goes undefeated in league play next year, you'll be first in line to support them as #1, regardless of how they did in non-conference play or the strength of their league...right?

    Or does it only apply to your AUS teams?

  29. I think every division in the CIS has their own version of "cannon fodder".

  30. Yeah, but when an eight team league has three teams with a combined record of 8-49...

  31. don't sleep on York; they will catch Laurentian and then beat Queen's in the first round. They have as much pure talent as any team in the OUA East however Bain stopped coaching I think after Mark Jones left in the 80's (or did he ever coach ?). The win over Carleton was no fluke, they are legit and the Ravens will have to deal with them again in the playoffs. Ottawa is also very suspect with only 3 players and a major fall off after that. This is the weakest Ontario league in many years but then the Q is shyte as is the Atlantic. UBC will finally win the Nationals this season.

  32. To Anon 10:17...

    You do realize you're talking about a 4-13 team don't you?
    No, make that 4-14...York lost to those "very suspect" Gee Gees by 14 tonight.
    The win over Carleton WAS a fluke, get a clue.
    You honestly think they could go into Carleton and do them again?
    To say nothing of making the playoffs in the first place.
    Shit happens in a single game...just ask the Swedes at the Salt Lake Olympics.
    Don't make this out to be anything it is not.
    It is not the rise of a York dynasty...stop dreaming in technocolour.

  33. Mac has lost 6 games this year (League). Five of them to top 10 teams(O,Car, Win , 2LH ) . All wins have been against unranked teams . Their record is no worse than any team in the AUS. Dal CB X wins have been against unranked teams. (Dal is not a true top 10 team RPI ) AUS teams don't play enough games against quality teams to get a true picture of their rankings .

  34. @10:17: I agree with everyone you said from said from the last sentence on.

  35. Well Alex T...
    UQAM got hit by a BIG RED train on Saturday Feb. 6 2010. Who is your pick to take Q now?

  36. I think the question is who cares who wins the Q?
    At nationals, there will be seven other teams hoping to get the Q rep as a gift opening draw.

  37. How many times have you watched York play recently ? They were in the game at Ottawa until the end, almost beat Toronto in January and just got Tyndale back after missing 3 games with a concussion. Laurentian is without Tirilis and one of the Pasquale bros and York gets them twice more. York should go 3-1 in their final 4 games including sweeping the Vees and get in. Then its on to Queen's where they have a legit shot at winning a one game playoff. They have 2 very good bigs, an explosive point guard and a rookie off-guard who makes shots. If they defend and rebound, which they did against Carleton, they are tough. Watch the games instead of just reading stats. No one said anything about a dynasty however they are way better than their record indicates. Ottawa is still suspect; if one of their main guys gets into foul trouble they are done because there is a huge fall off after that. Carleton dominated them at Scotiabank Place because Hobin took JGB completely out of the game with his d. Don't sleep on York.

  38. "Sleeping on York" is precisely why Carleton lost that game.
    No doubt they have some good young players.
    But if you think Ottawa is "suspect", York doesn't have much beyond its starting five.
    Point is, when they met in Ottawa it was 99-53 Carleton.
    Maybe the Ravens were thinking they were in for an easy game and got stung.
    Pulling off a major upset at home is one thing.
    Sustaining momentum from that is another.
    Obviously, York will have everyone's attention now.
    York has an outside shot of making the playoffs but everything will have to fall into place for that to happen.
    I think next year York will make its mark, provided it has another good recruiting class.

  39. it really doesnt matter if dal is ranked or not if they cant win the aus they wont make nationals as a wildcard entry.

  40. Did Victoria forget they were playing TWO games this weekend?
    Was UBC that good or was UVIC that wretched?
    Probably a combination of both.

  41. Keep in mind either Toronto or Ryerson could run the table, finish 12-10 and beat out an 11-11 Queen's (which has Carleton and Ottawa coming in next weekend). Toronto would be a tough matchup in that 3 vs. 6 quarter-final.

    No doubt York is better than its record and having injuries hurt, but you can only upgrade a team so much from a 4-14 record.

  42. @1:21: 30-2 after the first quarter, you don't come back from that. There's no way for athletes to convince themselves to go full speed when the game is hopelessly lost after 10 minutes.

    The last 30-2 run I recall seeing in person was in 1996, in the EOSSAA AA championship in Cornwall. I had a very good seat for that one, right next to the coaching staff.

  43. To one of the anonymous : I still think that the Q is UQAM's to lose. Granted, it wasn't pretty. But the Citadins are still to lose against the Q, at home. Everything seems to be clicking right now for McGill. They got great veterans, like Matthew Thornhill, Pawel Herra or Michael White. But most importantly, rookie Olivier Bouchard is really starting to get hot as McGill's point guard. They definitly could make some noise.

    Still in the Q...after a poor effort on friday, Laval lost again against Concordia on saturday...they are really free falling since they lost JF Beaulieu-Maheux due to injury.

    Let's see who comes up on top.

  44. Another X v Dal encounter and another easy win for the X Men.
    A 20 point blowout, 84-64.
    That makes it a perfect 0-8 against top 10 teams for Dalhousie.
    Come on coaches, give your heads a shake.
    that's 9 losses now for Dal, McMaster only has 6.
    Mac actually beat Ottawa and X,
    Dal lost five games to those teams by double digit scores.
    The Tigers are giving up close to 79 points a game for crying out loud.
    Without Simon Farine, they would be now better than UPEI, probably worse.
    There's absolutely no excuse for propping them up in the 10th spot.
    Coaches do the right thing...put Mac back and show the toothless Tigers the door.

  45. There is no room in the Top-10 for Dal. Mac has been playing well since losing to LKD twice and deserves that ranking. As for #1, Carlton has finally shown that they are no longer the dominant team in the OUA. UBC has proven themselves to be the strongest team this year from Oct-Feb and deserve the #1 spot.

  46. Last time I looked, Carleton still had the best record in the OUA at 17-2.
    Carleton has shown vulnerability on the road with both losses and a close call against Guelph.
    However, at home the Ravens have been dominant save for a listless performance against Ryerson.
    And home is where Carleton will be for the duration of the post season.
    I think time will tell, but I strongly suspect the game against York was an anomaly
    and Carleton will get itself righted in time for the playoffs.

  47. Alex T,
    I agree with all you said about McGill. It's not like previous years that they had El-Zanaty or Anthony and they scored 50-70% of the teams points without sharing the ball with others.
    This year Craig Norman assembled THE TEAM, sure the have probably MVP in Thornhill (top scorer in the leaque), my choice for ROY Bouchard, impressive playing his first year at difficult point guard position. Don't forget about veteran savvy post Mike White and Pawel Herra who leads the CIS nationally with an impressive 57% 3PCT. They rebound much better this year with addition of Nick Nishikawa and NEDA alumnus Nicolas Langley.

  48. Olivier Bouchard reminds me a lot of Laval's Xavier Baribeau. He had an impressive game against UQAM.

    I think that McGill will end up 2nd in the Q this year, with Laval finishing 3rd and Bishop's 4th.

    But like I said, let's see if McGill can beat UQAM @ UQAM in the season's final game. If they are able to beat them, and should both teams makes it to the final, it should be an interesting one to see.

  49. The guy who suggested that York will sweep Laurentian is crazy. Sure the Voyageurs are without their leading scorer and I'll hopefully find out Tirilis' status tomorrow, but you clearly have not seen Manny Pasquale play and it only takes a couple of shots for him to get going and once he gets on a bit of hot streak, he becomes very scary for opposing teams. The other thing to keep in mind, Laurentian plays very tough at home. Just ask Carleton and Ottawa - this past weekend was a good enough example. I also want to mention, Georges Serresse has really improved his game this year and he gives Laurentian some good minutes off the bench.

    As for Carleton, I am not sure they can win the national championship this year. Having watched a number of their games (thank you SSN Canada), I am appalled by the lack of discipline Dave Smart has with his team this year. There have been a number of games where they have just committed way too many fouls. This weekend again is another example...too many fouls = free points for the other team. What is even more appalling is lack of discipline by McCleery. He's gotten himself into foul trouble in too many games and frankly he is a huge difference maker for Carleton. That hook shot of his is super sweet and when its sitting on the bench, that will not win games for Carleton and if they go into the playoffs and CIS championships and get into foul trouble, they aren't going to win against stronger teams.

  50. Give the Mac talk a break. They've lost 4 games @ home within the OUA. Since they lost to Lakehead, they have been winning yes, and playing well, but they are beating teams that are at the bottom of the OUA west. And have 0 quality wins, aside from a win against a slumping Western team. They will probably get voted 10th this week. Hopefully that stops all the lobbying for them.

  51. 0 quality wins, eh?
    How many "quality" wins does Dal have?
    Four wins against MUN 1-13
    Three against Acadia 4-9
    Two against UNB 1-14
    One against UPEI 3-10
    Ten wins against four teams with a combined 9-46 record.
    Very impressive.
    Western and Laval are the best teams they've beaten this year.
    Dalhousie has been handled by X and CB six times, with the latest loss by 20.
    Dal's lost four league games at home, plus two out of three at
    home during their Rod Shoveller tournament.
    If Dal plays ANYBODY half decent, they lose.

  52. P.S., I saw Manny Pasquale play close to full games via videocast this weekend ... amazing shooter and ballhandler.

  53. Cantankerous2/09/2010 12:47 am

    Well Neate, we can't be too surprised about Manny Pasquale, or his brother.
    After all, the acorn doesn't fall too far from the oak tree.
    Good bloodline in those two kids.

  54. Crazy like a fox... York would have beat Queen's but no way Bain beats Katz.

    "The guy who suggested that York will sweep Laurentian is crazy. Sure the Voyageurs are without their leading scorer and I'll hopefully find out Tirilis' status tomorrow, but you clearly have not seen Manny Pasquale play and it only takes a couple of shots for him to get going and once he gets on a bit of hot streak, he becomes very scary for opposing teams. The other thing to keep in mind, Laurentian plays very tough at home. Just ask Carleton and Ottawa - this past weekend was a good enough example. I also want to mention, Georges Serresse has really improved his game this year and he gives Laurentian some good minutes off the bench."

    OUA East semi-finals should be another toronto ottawa slugfest and Carleton Queen's again but Ryerson might beat the Gaels

  55. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz that the sound of all you young fools who only read boxscores and slept on York... here they are still in with a good chance of giving Carleton a game. The Ravens are not that good. This is a wide open year until you get to UBC who will romp to the Nationals title.